| Author |
Message |
John Bartholomew (Johnbartholomew)
New Solitaire Player
Username: Johnbartholomew
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 11:14 am: | |
I am well on the way to making an empirical case that both Trefoil and La Belle Lucie are always winnable. Since there are hundreds of Solitaire varieties that I have never played, it seems plausible that are large numbers of them that are always winnable. I am not pretending that it is easy. Solutions for La Belle Lucie and Trefoil tend to be a bit harder to discover than for Freecell -- at least that is my experience. I also posted this topic in the "Is It Winnable?" forum, so there may ba a thread of responses there also. |
Thomas Warfield (Support)
Moderator
Username: Support
Post Number: 74
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 12:10 pm: | |
Yes, there are probably many other games besides FreeCell that are winnable almost all the time (FreeCell is not always winnable, but very nearly is). Given people's success with La Belle Lucie, it is probably almost always winnable.
One game that I can state with near certainty is always winnable is Fortune's Favor. In fact, try to *lose* a Fortune's Favor game without making deliberately bad moves. I don't think it can be done!
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Frank D'Urso
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 2:09 pm: | |
cheese and crackers! I only have won 12.5% of Trefoil......
Are not the redeals random? wouldn't that remove the skill and introduce a high degree of luck? Are you redealing until you see a "good" game to play? I guess I'm just worst than avergare on Trefoil....
I had it in another card game, and did okay on it IIRC, but i'm sure if I played itmore often I could raide my average, but to win it more often than not? How do you avoid getting clunking Kings ontop of twos all the time when you redeal?
Frank from Hopkinton |
John Bartholomew (Johnbartholomew)
New Solitaire Player
Username: Johnbartholomew
Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 6:15 pm: | |
This is a response to Frank D'Urso's post:
Regarding the redeals in both La Belle Lucie and in Trefoil: they are definitely not random; rather, they are a function of the precise arrangement of the cards prior to the deal. The results of the deal will be affected significantly if you make move even one card in the layout. In other words, they are deterministic.
Responding to another point: No, I NEVER open a new game and then abort out of if it looks like it is going to be difficult. I just keep working on it until I come up with a successful approach. This is quite challenging, which is why I like the process so much. Again, I just take whatever I get in terms of the initial deal. If I didn't do this, there would be no point in my trying to establish that all the layouts in these two games are winnable! It would be fraudulent to ever make such a claim if one were bailing out at the beginning of every layout that looked scary.
How to avoid the trap of having a King on top of another card of the same suit, after the second (which is the last) redeal? Obviously, if you get that kind of a redeal the game is lost, so what I do is back up to a point prior to that redeal -- at times, I back up SEVERAL steps prior to the redeal -- and alter the play in some way. This will always change the post-redeal layout. Sure, you often just get a different version of "King on top of another of same suit," so you just keep with the backing up, doing something differently, and then clicking on "redeal" until you get a winnable result. Lots of trial and error, to be sure, but eventually I get there. At least I have every time so far. I would be up to nearly 50 in both games, except that the laptop I am using had to get a new OS installed, and this required wiping the contents of the disk. So I lost the stats on about half of the series. In time, I'll get back up to about 50 in each one, at which point I may go off in search of other games to explore. |
mikeee
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 10:13 pm: | |
I'd like to see the game provide the option to save your stats in a backup file so you could restore them if "lost" for whatever reason...
I'd also LOVE to be able to remove individual games played in the stats. I worked up to over a 100 perfect games in freecell and then accidentally started a new one causing a loss in the stats of the previous game I accidentally stopped... boo hoo hoo can I get some cheese to go with my whine????? |
Thomas Warfield (Support)
Moderator
Username: Support
Post Number: 78
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 3:39 pm: | |
>Are not the redeals random?
The redeals in Trefoil are random in the sense that the cards are shuffled rather than picked up and laid back out in the same order they were picked up, which is the way most of the games redeal.
That being said, as John states, if you take the same game number, make the same moves, then do a shuffle, you will get the same layout after the shuffle. If you make different moves, though, you will get a different layout after the shuffle.
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Thomas Warfield (Support)
Moderator
Username: Support
Post Number: 79
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 3:41 pm: | |
>I'd like to see the game provide the option to save your stats in a backup file
There's no one file, but all the stats are stored in one folder, which you can backup. The folder details are at <http://www.goodsol.com/support/data.html>.
<I'd also LOVE to be able to remove individual games played in the stats.
This would, of course, kind of make the statistics useless  Perfect scores for everyone!
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becky david (Becky)
New Solitaire Player
Username: Becky
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 7:04 am: | |
Whilst you cannot erase 'accidental'games, you can avoid them in the first place. Go to option, then preferences. Click on confirmnewgame/restart and at least you'll get a warning that you have pressed the button! |
Patrick Snead
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 5:38 pm: | |
On the issue of the randomness of the second deal and third deals in La Belle Lucie, I don't believe it's true that a shuffle is determined by the position of the cards on the previous shuffle. A simple experiment: in a game that leaves you with two cards at the end of the second shuffle, say king of hearts over queen of hearts, take your last shuffle. If you lose (a 50/50 shot), undo and reshuffle. Maybe you'll win and maybe you won't. Same position on the second shuffle, different outcome on the third shuffle. Or try it with more cards - you'll get the same result. And yes you can win every game by reshuffling over and over, but that seems to me to be cheating. If you play the game as it's dealt, taking your best shot at each shuffle, then I think you're doing pretty well if you win more than 20% of the games.
I guess it's the nature of solitaire that we all have our own definitions of cheating. |
mark william todd (Mwtodd)
Intermediate Solitaire Player
Username: Mwtodd
Post Number: 32
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 6:07 pm: | |
you should try family plot; zodiac even; we all play within the rules of each game; we play many games, all of us love some and hate some; I think TW (inc team) have created enough variation within game types for any one individual to find a game they can play and enjoy; if you do not like the remit tough;
ps, what is your favourite game; |
mark william todd (Mwtodd)
Intermediate Solitaire Player
Username: Mwtodd
Post Number: 33
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 6:13 pm: | |
pps sorry to sound so brusk; |
Thomas Warfield (Support)
Moderator
Username: Support
Post Number: 606
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 7:24 pm: | |
In La Belle Lucie (and Three Shuffles and a Draw), the card positions in the 2nd and 3rd deals do not really depend on just where the cards are in the first deal as far as card position in the game is concerned.
However, there is some determinism here. The shuffle uses the game number as the random number generator seed, meaning that the same game number should always give you the same shuffle the first time. If you make *exactly* the same moves from there, then shuffle, you will get exactly the same layout for the second shuffle. But Patrick's example of doing undo and then shuffling again won't give you the same layout, because after the undo you will be in a different part of the random number sequence. In order to get exactly the same result, you have to start from the very beginning of the game (select game with a game number), get to the same position, and then shuffle, to get exactly the same layout after the shuffle.
It's not just based on the positions of the cards, though, although you would need to have the cards in the same positions to get the same shuffle result. But you also need to be in exactly the same place in the random number sequence in order for the shuffle to be the same - any deviation from the sequence will result in a completely different shuffle.
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Gregg Seelhoff (Seelhoff)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Seelhoff
Post Number: 96
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 12:51 pm: | |
>I guess it's the nature of solitaire that we all have our own definitions of cheating.
When it comes to software, using the side effects of a feature (as above) or a program bug to make a game easier is known as using an "exploit". It is not strictly cheating, but it is not exactly fair play, either.
Where one draws the line depends on ones own views. Personally, I try to live within the "spirit of the law" by not deliberately using exploits (but not restarting the game if I stumble into one). If somebody has 100% on La Belle Lucie with more than 50 games played, though, you can be assured that player knows this particular exploit well. |
jasonc65
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 1:28 am: | |
One game I think is nearly always winnable is Accordion, despite its bad reputation. The stategy of preserving one rank for the final sweep is very effective. I have liked the game well enough to write my own software for it in Scheme. Every game that I have played with it in which I was patient enough, I could always win.
I also think Fred's Spider is winnable most of the time.
One game that is absolutely silly is Puss in the Corner. On the first deal, play face cards in one pile, nine thru six in another, five through two in another, and don't worry about aces. On the second deal, you'll encounter the face cards first. Put each rank in a pile of its own. Do the same thing with the other groups of cards as they come along. You'll always win!
Frog seems to have some stange exploits that make it possible to always win. Just sort cards into columns according to category, and right-click on the first and second columns in order to move them around. I have never been able to win with it playing by the rules. |
Thomas Warfield (Support)
Moderator
Username: Support
Post Number: 645
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 3:03 pm: | |
It is widely believed, although not proven by computer to my knowledge, that Accordion is always winnable.
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jasonc65
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2004 - 6:20 pm: | |
Accordion is not always winnable. Pathological case:
KC QD JH TS 9C 8D 7H 6S 5C 4D 3H 2S AC
KD QH JS TC 9D 8H 7S 6C 5D 4H 3S 2C AD
KH QS JC TD 9H 8S 7C 6D 5H 4S 3C 2D AH
KS QC JD TH 9S 8C 7D 6H 5S 4C 3D 2H AS
Proof: A card must be moved one or three spaces. Difference in rank must be 1 or 3 mod 13. Difference in suit must be 1 or 3 mod 4. Hence, there is no legal move from the start of the game! |
Thomas Warfield (Support)
Moderator
Username: Support
Post Number: 648
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 4:42 pm: | |
That certainly proves there are unwinnable positions. Of course, the next question is how often do these positions come up in actual practice. It seems to be not very often.
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Amy M. Howard (Rayndragon)
New Solitaire Player
Username: Rayndragon
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 2:28 am: | |
In 909 games of Lady Jane, I have only four losses and I have gone back and won them, as I only "lost" them due to accidentally hitting the "new game" button. I can't say for sure if there isn't a combination that might be unwinnable, but so far... |
Jeralyn Taylor (Annika)
New Solitaire Player
Username: Annika
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 9:18 am: | |
GAPS, in Pretty Good Solitaire, is always winnable. The only challenge is to see how few
reshuffles one uses to win. My best number is one
reshuffle. I would like PGS to keep track of the number of reshuffles used, OR give the option of selecting how many reshuffles are allowed before the game is judged a loss.
GAPS is my favorite, and is great as a timed game in Action Sol. |
jasonc65
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 7:41 am: | |
I find Gaps extremely difficult to win in with two shuffles. I don't know what I could be doing wrong, but the game is listed as easy. I also have extreme difficulty with Free Parking. In any game of this variety, I'm quickly reduced to gaps adjacent to kings. |
Katie O'Brien
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 12:42 pm: | |
Is the FreeCell game number 15562 winnable? I have yet to crack it. |
Barbara Kittler (Bkittler)
New Solitaire Player
Username: Bkittler
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 1:32 pm: | |
Katie-
Took me a few tries, but was able to do it. Wish I had a way to tell you what the moves were! Had to try to get the middle row open first and then it seemed to fall into place.
Barbara (6355 wins/0 losses)
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Mike Bailin (Mikeb)
Advanced Solitaire Player
Username: Mikeb
Post Number: 52
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 9:55 am: | |
A couple of other games that haven't yet been mentioned:
Perpetual Motion is so notoriously always-winnable that even the rules describe it as essentially an interesting time-killer. Often you'll have to juggle the suggested right-to-left play once you've gotten down to 3 or 4 sets of cards, to break an endless loop of "wrong pile" deals, but even that's simple enough.
And I'd include Lady Cadogan too. While the rules rate it as 90 percent, I've now got over a thousand different games of that one won. Two basic rules of strategy: Don't fill in any columns that open up, or start to mix suits, until repeated passes through the deck finally exhaust all possible same-suit moves. And try to avoid having the same suit twice in the foundations, even if it means passing up tempting aces. |
katie O'Brien
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 12:07 pm: | |
Thanks Barbara. I found out from my daughter that she, too, was finally able to get it. I haven't yet but I'll keep trying. |
card_freeeeek
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 220.237.68.31
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 5:58 am: | |
what is one of the easiest games on freecell- the number. My sis came on and wrecked my stats but i don't have the heart to clear them. but i would love to know the easiest one, or one of.
(Message approved by admin) |
paul forsdick (Pondpaul)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Pondpaul
Post Number: 249
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 12:02 pm: | |
Hi
sorry your Sis wrcked your stats but one of the easiest games is 164 and you can win this easily
if you want to make it harder it is still possible to win it without using any of the 4 cells
paul |
John Ekberg
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 130.225.127.182
| | Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 3:15 am: | |
I have played several hundreds of Spider games and never found one which is not winnable. However some of them have taken many hours of "try and undo". (Without undo, I am only able to win one of three or four games). It is possible to construct provable unwinnable deals (like jasonc65's Accordion), but I believe they are very rare in real world.
(Message approved by admin) |
Thomas Warfield (Support)
Moderator
Username: Support
Post Number: 975
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 9:36 am: | |
Hi John,
Unwinnable games of Spider are possible, but rare. You can construct an unwinnable game by making a poisition where there are no possible moves among the cards in the final deal. This blocks the game. It isn't known (to my knowledge) exactly how often this happens in practice. It is clear that you can play a lot of games without coming across one of these blocked games.
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Jeralyn Taylor (Annika)
Advanced Solitaire Player
Username: Annika
Post Number: 57
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 9:49 am: | |
l have never lost a game of Maze, and believe it is always winnable, if one perseveres. |
Ella Prest (Daizy)
Solitaire Player
Username: Daizy
Post Number: 17
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 2:06 pm: | |
Same with Towers I have over 5000 games no losses, and Zerline 2100+ the only reason I show 1 loss is I hit F12 instead of backspace on my new keyboard and a new game came up. I prefer to use backspace instead of undo. My mistake :-( |
Bert Hager (Bert_x)
Junior Solitaire Player
Username: Bert_x
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 10:40 pm: | |
'Strategy' is another game with a very high winning percentage. But, an occasional deal is unwinnable.
Over on the Free Verse Software's website, I have only lost 4 games out of 4516 played. That's 99.91%, most were without using a redo and many played in less than 2 minutes. But, now I rarely play it at all. |
Melissa Boccia (Melissa_b)
Solitaire Player
Username: Melissa_b
Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2009 - 5:48 pm: | |
Twenty is always winnable. |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 2756
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 5:19 am: | |
It must be possible to lose at Twenty Melissa. A simple example would be if all of the twos and all of the queens were the final cards in the stock, with the jacks and threes buried way back. Highly unlikely, but possible. |
Ken Blackwell (Blackie9)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Blackie9
Post Number: 355
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 10:10 am: | |
#611691777 It is the one that stopped me. |
Mike Butler (Butler77)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Butler77
Post Number: 1014
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 12:00 pm: | |
I'm shocked Ken. I thought you were unbeatable. |
Ken Blackwell (Blackie9)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Blackie9
Post Number: 356
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 9:53 pm: | |
Well thanks for the vote of confidence but persistence is my only claim to fame. |
Mike Butler (Butler77)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Butler77
Post Number: 1015
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 06, 2009 - 10:54 pm: | |
Ok. I guess we will have to have a recall. |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 2757
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 3:58 am: | |
Persistance is the best tool in our arsenal. It frequently wins the day.
 |
Ken Millar (Tpa_ken)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Tpa_ken
Post Number: 1006
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 7:20 am: | |
Richard, I thought sarcasm was the best tool in your arse-nal? |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 2758
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 7:46 am: | |
Certainly the sharpest one Ken. |
Ken Millar (Tpa_ken)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Tpa_ken
Post Number: 1007
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 8:07 am: | |
Richard, are you now observing Daylight Savings Time over there in Scotland? More time in your garden, perhaps? I know Mike and I are grateful for more biking time! |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 2759
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 8:36 am: | |
The daylight hours are stretching at both ends Ken, but it's still too cold to be doing any gardening. The temperatures are usually in single figures during the day, and are often getting past zero at nights. On our last mini holiday a few days ago we took the road between Dunkeld and Crieff in Perthshire. We passed thru heavy snow and were pretty glad to get past it unscathed. Can you get snow ploughs for bikes? |
Mike Butler (Butler77)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Butler77
Post Number: 1016
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 11:46 am: | |
KenM. I got the bike out a couple of weeks ago to ride home from the auto repair rip off place. Since then I have run the dogs around a couple of times using it. My knees are killing me. Time to put it away. Sunlight or not. Enough!
Richard. Have you checked your email lately. I know you can send. But have you received anything? Glad you are posting agian Ken. |
Richard Mechen (Richardscotland)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Richardscotland
Post Number: 2760
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 12:10 pm: | |
Old knees and bikes are not compatible Mike. Push-bikes off cliffs.
The last email I had from you was about Burn's birthday.
Ken....I'm glad you're posting agian too!!! (Gratuitous use of the sharpest tool there). |
Mike Butler (Butler77)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Butler77
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 12:19 pm: | |
Ok. Just checking. Off to go swimming in the Agian Sea. If I pushed the bike off the cliff. How would I get home. Forget it I'll just follow the bike. |
Gregg Seelhoff (Seelhoff)
Master Solitaire Player
Username: Seelhoff
Post Number: 383
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 5:15 pm: | |
[bump]
(for the subtopic, 'Hints about games?')
|
Dr Richard Johnston (Scififan)
New Solitaire Player
Username: Scififan
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 10:40 am: | |
I suspect {from limited experience using climb mode} that Duchess may be always winnable. I've noticed that games which at first seemed impossible could be won if the correct opening foundation card was chosen. Admittedly, the correct choice isn't always particularly evident. |
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